Icon

Hey guys, stumbled over this and though id share it with you.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/3253-Patch-5-3-Live-This-Week

Way Ahead:) already check it daily.

Apparently there is huge issue with ALL addon sounds after Patch 5.3 - they get clipped by combat sounds all the time.
http://elitistjerks.com/f104/t132671-notice_5_3_dbm_sounds_combat/

I guess that is major reason for people constantly missing things in raid yesterday. You don't notice sounds affecting you since they are already reduced to "background reaction", but you still fail much more often if sound isn't there (also explains complains about talking on ts - there are no sounds but people think they are just not hearing them behind ts voices).
And adjusting to "soundless" raiding after raiding with sounds for years obviously takes longer then two hours - though there was clear progress :)

Hopefully they'll manage to hotfix this before next raid.

I pretty much read out that post last night on TS, if people didn't hear me then there's still a big issues to be sorted out here.

Yes, and people checked their addons + updated them again after you said that. That didn't help because sounds were still missing (since actual trick with "disable _all_ sound effects and set dbm to master channel" wasn't mentioned as far as i remember - and even that might not have helped everyone), and noone was willing to stop raid to sort it out in detail, preferring to "keep trying" - which obviously didn't help much :)

"People just shouldn't fail" doesn't work if you don't want to identify why people fail, or test out theories about origin of failures :)

Watching for sound warning for some things instead of visuals often allows people to "focus" on proper positioning - and without sounds all reactions suffer,

Band of noobs :P
/love

Guys :) dont doubt of ur skills, u just got screwed :)

Patch of 23 - Bug Fixes
Achievement: Waste Not, Want Not should now be properly awarded to players that satisfied all but the Cooldown Power-Up requirement.
Sound effects should no longer be cut out in areas with a large number of ambient sounds.
Fixed an issue where some sounds were not playing correctly during boss fights.
Fixed an issue where the raid warning sound was not playing correctly.


Bug fixe much prolly applied on US server first then EU. :)

The point I was making (albeit indirectly) was that DBM wasn't our main issue. Yes it probably affected us to start with but dispelling inside the pool, not running away from orbs, dying during the running around phase and other stupid shit were what made us stay there for 3 hours.

People need to buck up and focus because quite frankly, it's piss poor.

1. Flask, eat & buff - NOT when there's a ready check, not when the raid leader tells you to, but AS SOON AS YOU NEED IT. Seriously, waiting for anything is just stupid.

2. Focus - None existent last night.

3. Not understanding the mechanics of the fight - Really? After we've done this boss countless times on normal and several times on heroic and people STILL don't know some of the basics?

Honestly, with the experience and gear we have, we should be 3 or 4 heroics down already.

Agree with Hog, no excuse to not knowing mechanics ... there's only 2 things that differ from normal ...

Get on the horse, and let's rush those stupidly easy bosses! Also so we can stop listening to Suker moan :P

#7876355 Hogarella wrote:

dispelling inside the pool,

People moving out depends on feeling of fight flow/timing, which in turn can depend on addon sounds (like "i dispel/run out about x seconds after this warning sound")

Healers can enable watching for pool debuff and avoid dispelling people with it instead, but how easy it is to do and see depends entirely on addon setup for each healer.

not running away from orbs,

= Not having sound warning about being targeted by orb. :)

dying during the running around phase

Happened all the time on previous kills too. It was mostly "roll dice and wait for more people to randomly survive" - there doesn't seem to be any specific tactic you could use to avoid them all the time (since on attempts everyone died at least once or twice in lightning phase).
People also often die in the end of lightning phase while there are still lightning going around, but tanks already need to move boss, and healers already need to be in range of tank, plus there is raidwide 200k aoe going while lightings are still flying around - i'm pretty sure this part of tactics could use some refinement.

and other stupid shit were what made us stay there for 3 hours.

And we weren't even there for 3 hours since you called it at 2. :)

1. Flask, eat & buff - NOT when there's a ready check, not when the raid leader tells you to, but AS SOON AS YOU NEED IT. Seriously, waiting for anything is just stupid.

You cannot buff immediately because people are not in range/dead when you run in/get ressed, so you HAVE to wait there - which for me means i switch to second monitor, or check logs/addons for what happened - and i don't look back for buffs (or food) until i hear readycheck sound, or any other voice comm prompt for it - because watching raid range like a hawk for buffs all the time between pulls would ruin my focus during fight.

There is no pressing need for buffs ahead of the time - you can do buffs/flasks on pull timer, and ready check is definitely better spot for it, since by that point everyone is in range; in fact, we can do any boss with any specific buff missing, especially for buffs provided by multiple sources.

I would prefer addon whisper, because i don't have addons that would show me if anyone in raid is missing my buff if i buff with not everyone in range - and i cannot check everyone on every pull manually. For something like Ji'kun lower platforms, or even other side of Durumu room i even have to move to get people in range.

So for me ideal order would be "drop food, press addon buff/food check (with whispers), press readycheck, press addon button again if readycheck finished with everyone ready" (because you cannot avoid pressing ready button reflexively sometimes) :)

3. Not understanding the mechanics of the fight - Really? After we've done this boss countless times on normal and several times on heroic and people STILL don't know some of the basics?

2 heroic kills is far from "countless".

You can, for example, allow pool to absorb lightning fissures as it expands on normal (less running, faster moving back to continue dps/healing), while it sometimes leads to problems on heroic when it adds to other sources of damage.

And there is no Implosion if they intersect on normal.

Healers can probably try to wait with dispels until Static Burst is healed up - and Static Burst can be delayed from timers up to five seconds, adding randomness.

Honestly, with the experience and gear we have, we should be 3 or 4 heroics down already.

Well, clearly it's balancing act. We cannot focus on "just getting heroics down" since people still need tier pieces/last boss loot, and we never really were much faster then "one new boss per week" in progression, at least as far as heroics are concerned - and in T14 it was much easier to split efforts on heroics and "last boss loot".

I agree with you Shalcker, to a certain degree atleast... People getting too used to the sounds, telling them when to move from certain abilities, and when to know a certain, possible bad situation is about to happen...

But blaming lack of sound, of people being dispelled inside pools, not running out before it runs out etc... I don't buy it.
I had the same issue with sounds as anyone, but not once did I blow up a lightning ball in the pool, not once did I dispell myself (or anyone else for that matter) inside the pool ... Ok I did die in the lightning phase, which as you said can at times be a bit random ... I got b-lined by like 10 of them, and didn't notice quick enough.

I'm not trying to make myself sound better than anyone, or anyone sound worse than me for that matter... All I'm saying is, that counting on sound effect is a bad thing! You have DBM Timers, or BigWigs or W/E you're using ... If people took the time to work around with these addons, put the warnings and countdown timers in a place, so that you see them ... Many of these incidents could be avoided, not all ... but many.

If you get targetted by a orb (can't remember ability name) and have to run out, you will get a big blue beam on you, DBM/BigWigs will pop a warning in the middle of the screen warning you (This does happen, with or without sounds :O)

Again, I was dispelling Myself, Hog ... I think it was Voima or ELders? can't remember. I dispell myself, look at my CD, tell Hog to GTFO and he tells me when he's safe ... Boom, easymode ... no need for DBM sounds or anything, just watching timers on CD's and debuff, easy easy.
Again, I'm not trying to make myself look better than anyone, but all it requires is people to focus on the task at hand.
Sure, by watching your DBM, and watching for shit on the ground... You may lose out on a couple of K dps, but a loss of a little DPS is better than a wipe, amirite?

The whole buffing part, I can't really agree with you, nor disagree with you ... I myself wait for everyone to be there before buffing, but there's no excuse to not have eaten food, and saying you're ready ... There's not excuse to hitting ready without having hit your buff.
I miss it at times, with flasks... With buffs... WIth food... Whatever, but instead of coming up with some lame excuse like "Oh I'll buff when pull timer goes out" ... Just admit you forgot, I mean ... Come on!

I have had examples of different people, saying I'll do flask before pull, and when the timer is going, people are ready to pop a pot, and various CD's etc. they forget, and on the next try, they still don't have a flask.
We're talking about maybe ½-1 minute extra worth of time on your flask, in the time it lasts, by delaying using it. Just use it when it's about to run out, they're not that expensive...

/Cow

#7878384 Shalcker wrote:

#7876355 Hogarella wrote:

dispelling inside the pool,

People moving out depends on feeling of fight flow/timing, which in turn can depend on addon sounds (like "i dispel/run out about x seconds after this warning sound")

Healers can enable watching for pool debuff and avoid dispelling people with it instead, but how easy it is to do and see depends entirely on addon setup for each healer.

not running away from orbs,

= Not having sound warning about being targeted by orb. :)

........

Shalcker, please don't tell me you are arguing that "Communication would have made it easier", even if it was an addon proving that communication ;P

Anyhow, totally agree with Hog, with the "countless times on normal" there shouldnt have been half the mess ups that were happening, most of which would have even wiped us on normal. And people have no excuse for not knowing these tactics.

Also there seems to be a lot of "cutting corners" being noticed too these days, and not just on this boss, where people DPS other things cuz its easier than DPSing what they should, or not positioning how we should due to it taking a few seconds more to move out, etc... all of which makes it so that other people have to do the job properly but the job of 2 people.
A perfect example of this is the maze boss where people simply seem to not be bothered to DPS the adds in the beams these days, and even the 1st boss with dropping the orb not at the egde of the room cuz they cant be bothered to move out further. All stuff that basically adds extra work on to others to sort out.

I'm not pointing at 1 person here, there are a few doing this. And fine, we can all understand there are times where it makes sense for a certain class/spec to do something else cuz they are not the best class/spec for the job... but (in the case of the maze boss) when a melee who has to run to the mob and is probably the least "burst" spec in the raid is doing double the damage on mobs that everyone should be nuking fast, you can see there is someone slacking.

Shalcker...

1. Dispelling in the pools - No, no, no. The first couple of times yes, after that it should never happen again. End of argument.
2. Dying while running around - Again no, how many time did I die in that phase? Or Gringo? etc...
3. Flask, eat, buff etc. - How many times have you heard anyone asking for stamina buff? I dare you to say more than zero times. If you want to analyse logs on your second monitor, do it AFTER raid. Getting that analysis during the raid slows the rest of the 9 people down. You may think you are helping but you are not. There absolutely IS a need for buffing as soon as possible, otherwise we are just going to be waiting longer and longer during each wipe recovery.
4. Countless kills - I said countless normal kills, not heroic, because people were wiping to normal mechanics.
5. People do not need any more gear to enable us to kill more heroics. More gear just allows us to make more mistakes and overgear content.

Finally... When the raid leader tells you to do something... Just. Fucking. Do. It. No more arguments about it, no more waiting around. You may think there is benefit in doing something your way but all you do is piss off 9 other people.

#7878569 Elgringø wrote:

#7878384 Shalcker wrote:

#7876355 Hogarella wrote:

dispelling inside the pool,

People moving out depends on feeling of fight flow/timing, which in turn can depend on addon sounds (like "i dispel/run out about x seconds after this warning sound")

not running away from orbs,

= Not having sound warning about being targeted by orb. :)
........

Shalcker, please don't tell me you are arguing that "Communication would have made it easier", even if it was an addon proving that communication ;P

In fact, it proved to me that that people rely on those (or other) sounds more then on TS, and that Voice Comm DISTRACTS people from them - because you were the one complaining about talking on TS on storm transition there :)

So, talking can cause people to fail some mechanics sometimes. And sometimes it can help. Double-edged sword :)

#7878687 Hogarella wrote:

Shalcker...

1. Dispelling in the pools - No, no, no. The first couple of times yes, after that it should never happen again. End of argument.

Sadly i don't have logs for Thursday, but i think "dispel in pools" only happened three-four times total for entire night (which is about 20 minutes out of two hours - early dispel is wipe less then 2 minutes in, after all). And at least once in first few pulls debuff expired while people were standing in pool - think it was when people were sure it wasn't there and prevented by cooldown. You definitely can chalk that up to not having sound warning.

2. Dying while running around - Again no, how many time did I die in that phase? Or Gringo? etc...

Twice, i think. And at least once for Gringo. I remember looking at at least one instance where you apparently died just from storm damage, no visible lightning bolt hits.

There a few steps you can make to reduce chance of getting hit by bolts (like not standing too close to one), but you can still get killed by bad lightning strike configurations if you're caught without any cooldowns/healing/shields - planning 6 steps ahead and reacting to multiple barely visible lightning strike positions at once doesn't seem that easy for anyone.

3. Flask, eat, buff etc. - How many times have you heard anyone asking for stamina buff? I dare you to say more than zero times.

Definitely heard it once or twice. Not thursday, ofc, because we had three people who can buff stamina, and only one for stats and non-aura mastery each.

If you want to analyse logs on your second monitor, do it AFTER raid. Getting that analysis during the raid slows the rest of the 9 people down.

Wiping slows us down. Preventing wipes by explaining what exactly happened and taking steps to mitigate it (even if it's reminding people "this mechanic exists! avoid it") saves more time for everyone.

4. Countless kills - I said countless normal kills, not heroic, because people were wiping to normal mechanics.

Not all the time. In fact, i think closer to 80% were due to heroic mechanics (and looking at statistics, we only had 10 normal kills before that - that's hardly "countless"). People definitely needed heroic changes explained for at least one wipe - and you can get multiple kills and just never happen upon situation where you cause Implosion, for example (which doesn't even exist on normal, and was only clearly explained on first night of Jin'rokh tries after people died to it).

5. People do not need any more gear to enable us to kill more heroics. More gear just allows us to make more mistakes and overgear content.

Well, that clearly depends on how valuable heroic kills are overall. Gear helps to succeed. Practice helps too.

And there are no people that make no mistakes. There are just mistakes that are recoverable (sometimes with gear), and mistakes that aren't (which you can only mitigate with practice and by not making them in the first place).

Finally... When the raid leader tells you to do something... Just. Fucking. Do. It. No more arguments about it, no more waiting around. You may think there is benefit in doing something your way but all you do is piss off 9 other people.

I always did! Really, i'm just trying to make it actually possible for people to get buffed consistently by making habit of buffing at readycheck without thinking - you got to stick it to something to make it work, we can't really rely on asking on TS every time, right? That's clearly bad habit which isn't good for anyone.

And there doesn't seem to be anything else consistently happening between pulls you could react to with buffing other then readycheck.

you're asking us to change the way we behave while not giving a single inch in your behaviour, that's not logical either. It's been a standard practice ever since I joined Icon many years ago to ensure buffs are done ASAP and not at the readycheck.

Finally, I'm locking this thread because it's getting nowhere but I will leave you with this.

When 9 other people tell you that you are wrong, why don't you believe them? And the most important point of all: WHEN THE RAID LEADER TELLS YOU TO DO SOMETHING, YOU WILL DO IT. There is on argument, no discussion, I don't care if you think your way is 0.01% better or 1000000% better, that's the way we've chosen and you need to follow. If you don't like it, there are other guilds that may be a better choice for you.